Episode 52: Tackling Never-Ending To-Do’s with Cliff and Phoebe
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Hello, and welcome to The Thoughtful Realtor podcast. This is a podcast where we sit down for insights, stories, and conversations about all things real estate, running a real estate team here in California, NorCal and SoCal, and how we find our way as leaders and business partners.
My name is Cliff Tsang, one of the founders and partners of Willowmar Real Estate. And for today's episode, we've brought on one of our Willowmar family members, Phoebe Sin. Phoebe not only is a realtor, but she also works at Google. She's also passionate about community volunteer work. So as you can imagine, Phoebe has a very intensive and ongoing to-do list. She is a master to-do-lister.
So hi, Phoebe. Welcome to the podcast! We're going to talk about your to-do lists. I feel like you're a master at managing things, and I've really just admired your ability to get stuff done. And so, I'm super excited to record this episode and share some of these nuggets with our audience.
So, before we get started, just to share a little bit of background with our folks, let's talk about you and your career. So, maybe to kick things off, how long have you been a realtor for?
Hi, yes. Hi, Cliff. So happy to be on the pod. I've been a realtor since about August 2022. So that puts us just around a year and a half.
Awesome. And how would you describe your time as a real estate agent?
I love it. I think I've learned so much about the industry, about myself, through this process, and it's really everything I thought it would be, and more. It has exceeded my expectations going in, which, I think, I naturally had very low expectations–just wanting to experience something new, learn something new and kind of keeping it low pressure going in. But, with high hopes, of course, and it has met and surpassed all of it.
Yeah. And what would you say drew you into real estate?
Well, really to understand my background around real estate, I'll take you back to when I was in middle school, actually. So, as a kid, I would drag my family members to open houses because I really just–I love seeing the design and the different architectural styles of homes. And even just the staging and different stagers having their own style preferences as well.
So, I also loved going over to friends’ houses. I love seeing that. That home just says so much about the people who live in it, and it's just always been a curiosity of mine. So, fast forward through adulthood. I think I retained so much of that and it's all still true. But, I will always say that my favorite part of real estate is still touring.
So in addition to that, it's the most fulfilling career. I think I touched on it briefly earlier, but after purchasing my first home, that's when I realized how much I loved the process of buying a home and realized that I wanted to be the one in the position to guide people through the process, and come alongside families as they enter the next chapter of their lives. Because it is such a personal–and such a large financial investment and just playing a large role in that is so exciting and such a privilege to me.
Aww, that's so beautiful to hear. Because I think everyone who gets into this industry, they have those moments where things click, and they're like, “Oh, this is what I want to do.” But last question before we start to talk about to-dos; all of what you just said made me want to have this moment to share with folks who are listening: what would you say has been a career highlight for you thus far?
It's always so hard to pinpoint just one moment because every single transaction is truly unique and it has its own highlights in its own way. So, I'll say my favorite moment in real estate in general is the moment where I get to call the buyer clients and let them know that their offer was accepted. Because, you know, after sometimes months of searching for the perfect home–and we may be negotiating or competing against multiple offers–so when I get to call them and deliver the news, it's an unparalleled feeling. I remember one time, my client was on the way to her bachelorette party, actually, and she was in the car with her sisters and all her friends.
And, I got to call her and tell her the good news. And they were all on speaker phone, they were all shouting with joy. And it was just such a fulfilling experience to be able to share that and know that she was surrounded by her favorite people who are going to not only get to celebrate her marriage, but also celebrate this huge milestone alongside her.
And so, this is just a job where people really put their futures in your hands, and they trust you. And that's really not something I ever take lightly. So, that's a career highlight every single time I get to help clients really reach their goals.
So good, so good, yeah. Funny, I know which client you're talking about, and I remember you sharing that story with me six months ago and being so, so excited.
And it's so cool to see just–well, if you're listening to the podcast, you can't see Phoebe right now–but her face lit up just recalling that story and it's just such a genuine, yeah, it's a genuine joy that we get to share with our clients that's really, really special.
Thanks for sharing that, Phoebe. Okay, so let's talk about to-do lists and learn and tap into Phoebe's master brain on how she organizes her day to day. So, just to kick things off, what is your to-do list , and how do you use your to-do list in terms of time management? And then, I'll share how I use mine, as well.
Yeah, yeah, I’d definitely love to hear how you organize yours as well. But mine is really a comprehensive snapshot of what I want my day to look like and what I aspire to do on any given day. So, I have different sections for to-dos based on time frame as well–whether it's the day, the week, the month–and I also include work-related tasks, between real estate and my role at Google, but also things like personal commitments and things that I want to make sure I get done: like working out, walking my two dogs, meal prepping.
So, even the tiny things, like dropping off returns at UPS, they all make it into my to-do list. So, I try to color code it, and I even include little icons sometimes to mark important items. And that way, I kind of allocate my time more efficiently.
And, I would say time blocking is pretty crucial as well in this process because it makes sure that I dedicate the right amount of time to each aspect of my life. And, I also think it's really important with so much going on that I maintain a good balance between real estate, of course my job at Google, as well as my personal life.
Yeah, and when you say, for a to-do list, is it a physical to-do list? Are you writing it down? Do you have an app that you're using? Your calendar? What does your to-do list look like?
Yeah, it manifests itself in so many different ways. So I would say, do as I say and not necessarily as I do because I think that my to-do list, some of it lives in my calendar. And, I think you do something similar, Cliff, as well, but you know, walking the dogs, things that I need to be reminded of throughout my day–those will live in my Google calendar because I'll get alerts for those and reminders.
And then, I really love the satisfaction of writing things down with pen and paper. So, if it's more task oriented–-you know, emailing back a client or remembering to submit–I will write that down physically and then, you know, cross it off my list when it gets done. So, it kind of lives across multiple platforms.
Yeah, that's funny. The way you described it is very similar to mine. I'm sure if I had to break it down, there is a system in my mind, but I kind of use a few different platforms. Like, Google Calendar because I get the alert, and then I have a–I think the app is just called To Do. It's a Microsoft app, and it has a very fulfilling–when you check the box and you complete it, and it vibrates, and it feels really good. So, those are my two main ones.
I know this is more focused on to-dos but you also brought up time blocking, and I guess this is more an episode on how to be efficient with your time, and I've found that that's super important as well, because there are some days where it's just back-to-back meetings and everything.
And, when you have everything on your calendar, it makes–I don't need to make any decisions anymore. I just follow my schedule. It literally has: “Take Bruno out, our dog, to potty.” All the way to: “Out of the gym,” client meeting, and all that. And I literally just follow it, and then my day is accomplished.
And, that's how I also manage my bigger to-do list.
Yeah.
Related to that, so, with all that you have going on, does it sometimes feel impossible to get everything done? And if so, does that mean that there's something fundamentally wrong with the to-do list, or is it something that you have to be okay with: not accomplishing things?
How do you, as someone who has so much on your plate, how do you think about that? Or actually, maybe, you can share your insight with folks. Does your to-do list actually get finished every day, or is it just a growing–is it an endless list, so to speak?
Yeah, I think the first thing I'll say is: you have to know yourself a little bit as well. For example, I know that I'm the type of person that needs to do, sometimes, the most important tasks–if it doesn't rely on other people, if it's just personal, like working out. Some of the most important things I have to prioritize have to get done at the beginning of the day because I know that that is the time of day when I'm most productive.
So, I think the first part is just knowing yourself and knowing where to time block certain things, but yes, I think in general, a to-do list can definitely seem overwhelming, especially when the list feels like it's never-ending.
But, I think a big shift is in the mindset. My to-do list has so many categories, and it captures everything, so I don't necessarily view it as something that is one list that needs to get all checked off by the end of the day.
And, like I said, I do put stars or I'll note certain things that I do need to do that day. But because I'm juggling so many hats, I really use my to-do list more as a reminder of tasks that maybe I should go back to, especially if I have to context switch.
It's a good reminder tool for me, but I really see it high-level as a guide, not necessarily a strict agenda. And I acknowledge that some of my tasks will spill over to the next day, and then, sometimes even the next day after that. But, because I set that mindset early on, and I prioritize the things that are must-dos and then want-to-dos, it helps me manage that expectation and just make progress.
Yeah, yeah, cool. So, that's a really good question to next dive into a little bit and double click on, because you talked about prioritizing your to-do list. How do you go about doing that? At least, that's something that I struggle with: which is my to-do list app or even on the Calendar.
There's no prioritization on it, and sometimes, I struggle with: “Am I doing what I should be doing?” Because sometimes, it just feels gratifying checking the box off. So, how do you think about that–just having so much to juggle at once?
Yeah. So for day-to-day tasks, I will rewrite them every day in the order of how they need to be accomplished. And so, things that are time-sensitive or high importance, they go at the top of the list. And then, I do work in chronological order. And then, there's, you know, always the non-negotiables, like taking care of yourself, taking care of your dogs.
And for me, a non-negotiable is also date night with my husband once a week. And so, I will make sure that those get to the top of the list on those days. And then, everything else rolls from there.
But I think it's really important to do a reflection every day and make sure that what is at the top of your list is what you truly want and need to get done, and then, yeah, reorganizing it when necessary.
That's so cool to hear because it sounds like you're so thoughtful with your day and so intentional with your day, and it makes sense. That's why you're able to get so much done. You know, it's so clear. I think, from my perspective and from the team's perspective, it's like “Phoebe gets her stuff done.” And, it's really cool to hear how you prioritize.
It's something also, I think Connie, Kenny and I try to infuse this kind of thinking with the team, and like what you said about date night with Mark being a non-negotiable, I think the way that we try to run and lead the team is–have you seen that YouTube video with the professor in front of the class talking about filling the jar with rocks?
No, I don't think I've seen that one.
He has the empty jar, and then he fills it in with the big rocks. And then, he asked the guys, “Oh, can you fill it in with anything else? Is there any more space?”
It's like, “No. There's no more space.” And he has gravel, and he puts it in and then he's like “Is it empty?”
And they're like, “Yeah, it's full.” And then, he's like, “No, you could still actually put sand in it, you know.” But the moral of it is: if you fill your jar up with sand and all these little minute things, you're never able to put the big rocks in.
And it feels like you've oriented your schedule like date night, taking the dogs out, gym in the morning, those are your big rocks, and before you even start getting into the to-dos of your day-to-day or week-to-week, it's time blocking the big rocks into your calendar.
So that's really, really cool to see.
And, I would encourage that too. With the big rocks, don't be afraid to make those personal things, because I think in this journey, and especially in real estate, we give so much of ourselves to our clients and the folks that we support on a day-to-day basis.
And, I actually find–and I know it's cliche and people say this all the time–but it really is true that you show up best for others when you're taken care of. And so, I find that when I'm in a good emotional headspace because I've had that date night or because I've gone on a walk in the morning, and I've moved my body a little bit–that is how I best show up for my clients in a state where I feel calm.
And I feel like I can tackle all of their problems and any transaction things that come up because I've equipped myself with that armor early on in the day.
So good, so good. Yeah, you need to take care of yourself first before you can take care of others. That's some really good insight that you just shared there, Phoebe. Next, let's talk a little bit about people maybe feeling pressured about their to-do list.
I'm curious what type of guidance you might give to folks who might be listening and they're like, “Okay, I know everything that Phoebe's saying here conceptually makes sense. I want to put the big rocks in my calendar. I want to prioritize my to-do list, but I just, I'm just way too frustrated right now. There's just too much going on in my life, right? I can't even get to the point that Phoebe's at right now. I want to, but I can't.”
What would you share with someone who's overwhelmed with even thinking about a to-do list?
Yeah, I actually think it seems counterintuitive to add more things to your to-do list, but I do think it helps to break big tasks into much smaller, actionable steps because I do think it makes each one less intimidating. And, I'll give you an example: if I'm thinking about creating a post or creating a video for social media, sometimes that feels like a big task. I have to get my camera setup out. I have to think about what I'm going to create, actually film it, edit it, upload it, all of these different things. And when I just say, I need to post a video on social media, that feels like a really big task.
But then when you break it down into just the individual components, a lot of times I'll just say, you know, come up with one idea for social media. And that takes maybe five, 10 minutes. And a lot of times, one: that gets the snowball of your creativity going, and it inspires you to take larger steps, but I think it gives you a really attainable goal.
And then, you know, that sense of accomplishment with each tick builds off of each other. So I think it's really important. Yeah, to take it step by step and give yourself credit where credit is due, which is credit for each incremental step.
Question about that: how do you think about the incremental step? That's a great tip to break it down because that's something that I do too. I remember hearing from Brandon Turner, the former host of the BiggerPockets real estate podcast, he always said, “You just want it to be literally the bite-sized thing because it's about building momentum. Just do that first.”
How do you know if it's bite-sized enough? For example, you said posting on social media, someone could think, okay, I need to collect 10 photos. Or is that not enough? Should it be: collect one photo? What is the right bite-sized amount?
Yeah, I think this is a little bit of trial and error because I don't think that it's going to necessarily look the same for everyone. But the way that I know if a step is too big is if I get to that piece in my to-do list, and I feel a lot of internal resistance about doing it. To me, it's a little bit more of a feeling because then when it feels so daunting that I don't even want to start the task, that's when I know that I maybe need to break it down further.
And so, sometimes, it takes time to realize that it'll sit on my to-do list for one, two, three days. And then when I go back and I have that reflection period and I look at that item and I think about if I need to do it, usually the answer is yes, I still need to do it. Why haven't I done it? And it goes back to: sometimes, things are overwhelming for me, and that's when I know I need to break it down further.
And then, yeah, trial and error. Some people need it even smaller than others. And so I would say just experiment with different things.
Yeah. Yeah, that's so good. Yeah. Breaking down the task, I think is–you said it really, really well, which is like that internal resistance. I think if people look at a task and it feels heavy and they don't want to do it, it's probably too big. Because you can break down ,even something as simple as walking, like, “Hey, I need to walk five steps.”
You could break that down into, “Go get your socks. Put on left sock, put on right sock, tie your shoe.” There's like 50 steps still before you can even go walk, take five steps. So you always break it down even more until you're like, okay, I can do that. And then you start to build that moment.
That's so good. Just to wrap things up, I think it'd be nice for us to talk about tips on building an effective and useful to-do list. So, what are some of the tips that you might have in terms of building an effective and useful to-do list? And related to that, just general efficiency with their day-to-day as well.
Yeah, if you hear nothing else in the podcast, here are your five takeaways. I think the first one is: prioritize with purpose. So understand what is urgent, understand what's important, and really focus on what truly matters. Don't get bogged down by things that maybe don't matter as much.
The second one is: embrace flexibility. You know, life is very variable. Every day is going to look just a little bit different than the other. So view your to-do list as a guide. Allow yourself flexibility to change something if something comes up in the middle of your day. And it is okay if some tasks spill over to the next day.
The third one is: break it down. We just hammered this point home, but turn your big tasks into small, actionable tasks. And don't forget that this is all momentum. You're building momentum.
The fourth is: review your list regularly. So, like I said, whether that's every day, maybe every week, reassess and adjust your priorities to make sure that everything you're doing is aligned with your larger goals, whether it's health, whether it's career progression. Whatever it is, just make sure that the things you're doing in your day-to-day and what you're really spending your time on is aligned with your goals.
And then the last one is–
Quick question on that. So, how often do you recommend reviewing? Because I think that can be really powerful for folks to think about.
So, I reassess every day for the daily to-do list with work and things like that. But in my personal life, you know, I have a monthly to-do and I have a quarterly to-do list, and I do assess those on more of a long-term basis. So when that quarter rolls around or when that month rolls around, I take a look at those items as well.
Awesome.
The last one is arguably the most important one, but it is to celebrate all of your victories, big and small. And I think it's really important to recognize and celebrate your achievements; and in order to maintain your motivation and also just keep reducing the pressure, taking the pressure off yourself, because the more light you feel, the faster you will go in some sense.
And so, I definitely think it's important to celebrate.
Awesome. Those are so great, Phoebe. It's really cool to see, and it sounds like those five tips are gems for folks wanting to get more productive, thinking about their to-dos. And it's just really cool to see you've kind of achieved mastery over this topic, and you're able to really teach folks.
That's really neat to see.
And it's always a work in progress, but, you know, it's really, it is cool to look back and all the listeners who are just starting this journey will look back very soon and realize they've made a lot of progress.
Yeah, and the last question is related to what you said about small victories. I'm wondering: do you have those planned? Are those more a surprise? Sometimes, for our real estate team, we talk about: if we have victories for ourselves, hitting our own individual goals, it's important to–if you have a partner, if you're married–to incorporate that person into those victories as well, because this is a really demanding job.
And as Phoebe mentioned earlier, we give a lot, if not all of ourselves, to our clients. And it's important for us to recharge and have those victories. So Phoebe, how do you think about those victories for you and Mark, your partner?
Yeah, I think it's in just doing what I love and allocating a little bit of time on my to-do list on my calendar to do something that I love. So last week is a great example. I feel like I was really productive last week, and I'm just starting up my new social media page. And so I had a pretty ambitious goal to start engaging with a lot of other professionals and start posting pretty consistently.
And at the end of last week … Yeah, go ahead.
You should plug the handle.
Oh, yes. I am @phoebetherealtor on Instagram and TikTok, so you can find my new social media pages there. But, I looked back on the week last week and I felt really proud that I was able to stick to my goals and really start off strong with how much I posted and the quality of the content I posted, too. I feel like I was very intentional about what I was putting out there.
And so, as a little bit of a reward on Saturday morning, I woke up, and I designated a specific time to make bagels, because that's something I love to do. And I thought the idea of waking up on a weekend and getting to eat a fresh bagel sandwich sounded amazing. And so that was just a little reward I gave myself: personal time to do something I love.
So good, so good. Awesome. Well, thanks for joining us for this deep dive on to-do list. It’s always interesting to see how people organize their time and how it evolves to how they organize their lives. So, thank you so much, Phoebe, for joining us and showing us how you organize your to-do list and how you make it all happen because, I would say from the outside, it just feels like magic kind of happens. And, it was kind of cool to get the inner workings and thoughts behind the scenes.
So listeners, thanks so much. We'd love to hear how you navigate your never-ending to-do list, so let us know! You can find Phoebe on Instagram, as we mentioned at @phoebetherealtor, or for this podcast we're at @thoughtfulrealtor.
And if you haven't already, please hit that subscribe button and leave us a review. We read each and every one of your reviews and always appreciate when you share the love.
So, thanks again, Phoebe, and thank you, listeners for tuning in. And until next time, bye!
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