Episode 68: Behind the Scenes of a First-Time Flip with Cliff & Connie
Hello and welcome to the Thoughtful Realtor Podcast. This is a podcast where we sit down for insights, stories, and conversations about all things in real estate, running a real estate team in California, and how we find our way as leaders and business partners.
I'm Connie Chung.
And I'm Cliff Tsang. We're two of the founders and partners of Willowmar Real Estate.
And today our conversation is super exciting because we're gonna be talking about something we talk about with our clients all the time, and that's renovations and in particular flipping. I'm going to be interviewing Cliff about his personal journey of flipping a house here in Oakland, in the Bay Area, California, and all the fun parts of the journey–the challenging bits, and all the lessons learned.
So. Let's get into it!
Let's go.
And just a fun background note about Cliff and your experiences. You've bought many investment properties. We invest together in a building and this is your first flip, is that right?
Cliff: Yes. First time doing a project with the intention of buying it and then immediately reselling. I've done other ones where we renovated the home quite a bit, but that was like a buy and hold, like a BRRRR strategy.
What inspired you? Let's start from the beginning. What inspired you to buy a home, renovate it for resale?
You know, I think the biggest motivation was just wanting to learn. I think in many ways I try to push myself every year just to take on a new skill. And it's been a little bit in vogue in recent years. But I also just think part of the real estate communities that I'm part of, more folks have been flipping and not only has it I think shown to be a lucrative avenue, but it also allows you to really kind of grow your skillset, 'cause I also thought that it'd be a good opportunity to learn about the construction process as it would make me a stronger real estate investor and also a stronger realtor as well.
Yeah, it's almost like real life business school for flipping a home because you're actually doing it and going through the process. It's a worthwhile investment because if anything, if you don't make your money back, of course you will in some ways, but you are literally paying for hands-on experience.
I feel like you're laughing because—and we'll save it for another conversation—I know that you've, you have gone through a couple massive construction projects too. So the masters in real estate is, I'm sure you have felt that too. It's just like endless learning and decisions to make.
Yes, definitely. What drew you to Oakland to do your first flip? Because I know for folks who may not be in the Bay Area, I mean, flipping and even just renovating a home in general in the bay can be very challenging.
Yeah, I think I was more of subject to just the circumstances because finding a good deal on a flip is really difficult. And when I had this one kind of fall in my lap and had to make the decision, I think Oakland wasn't the most ideal, just kind of given some of the stories that I heard of just some crime that can happen at your job site and those types of things.
But I just kind of made the commitment knowing that it might. Be months before I found another deal like this. And also since I live in Oakland and it's about 10 minutes away, I figured being able to drive there—which has held true, like I go to the job site once, maybe twice a week—has been really helpful for a first flip.
It's pretty special, yeah. Especially for your first project, to have it be in the city where you live because you are gonna be at that job site nonstop, and also to remove that friction of not knowing the unknowns. Any bit of that you can remove is very helpful.
What was your vision for this flip, and also for folks who may not know, like what does a good deal look like? What did that look like for you?
Yeah, in terms of a good deal, so I think I tried to kind of be more analytical with it. One thing that I looked at was price per square foot. This was a 1800 square foot home that I got under contract for $600,000 in the Redwood Heights area of Oakland, a nice residential area, a lot of first time home buyers in that area, and knowing that this home would also, after the flip, would sell in that 1.3M to 1.5M range–which is I think a good initial price point for folks in the Bay Area. In other words, I didn't wanna be doing a flip that was gonna be a $2M to $3M home because it just is more risky as well for a first time flip.
So running the numbers that comes out to about 333 per square foot, which on a price per square foot basis, that's actually a pretty good deal, and then you could tack on how much you're expecting to spend on the rehab. This project is gonna cost about $500,000 to give you a sense. So then just knowing that all in cost should work out, the math should work out at the end.
I felt like it was a worthy one to pull the trigger on.
Because sometimes these opportunities fall into your lap, but you have very limited time to move on them—in thinking about the vision, how quick did you have to kind of lay out your projections and was it pretty easy to do for you? How did you navigate that?
It's one of those things that you prep for and you think, "Okay, well when this happens, I'm gonna be so confident and I'm gonna move forward." And then when it actually lands in your lap, then you have to make a decision, it's not as easy. You know, I think generally speaking, when a deal lands on your [lap], and you have to make a decision…
I had, I think it was like a day or two, to kind of decide if I was gonna sit an offer. There's a round of counters, so before you know it, it was–I don't know–Friday. I had no idea. Saturday, it fell on my lap and by Monday I was already in contract. And what complicated it too was my wife Mee-sun, she was 8+ months pregnant at the time.
So when I calculated: if we close in 21 days, that was getting really, really close to the due date, and so I had to, at dinner, prep her and get her blessing too. If this closes, we might be at the hospital signing papers.
Taking on this huge risk!
Taking on the risk and also doing the project with a newborn and all of that.
So, needless to say, the last year has been quite the whirlwind and pretty busy.
Yeah. I love that as a real estate professional too, you're putting money where your mouth is, because so many of our buyers or so many people are saying, “This is the height of the market, I can't buy now.” But for you even to be buying and investing in the city, it shows like there are always opportunities to be found at the same time.
I think so. It's been part of my practice, I think, trying to become a better realtor is to try to predict the future less. I think I came into this job thinking, oh, the economists know this, or, Hey, the textbook says this. I think I'm just in life just learning to kind of let go of that, thinking what the next step's gonna be like. So related to that, I think there was a lot of fear in my head at the time of should I do this flip? And anytime you pull up the news, there's like 20 articles of why the world's gonna fall apart and why the economy's gonna come crashing.
And I had to kind of set that aside, thinking through my priorities. The priority was not to lose money. I hope I don't lose money on this flip, but even if I do a little bit or even break even, that's still a win in my book because I had a year of experience gained. I've tried to think through it in the last six months or so. If I didn't do this flip, how would I have learned all these things?
And I think it would've taken, I don't know, two or three years just shadowing projects and all that. So I've effectively saved myself a lot of time as well, and that's kind of been valuable.
Well, let's go through this journey because for many who renovate their own home, that already is such a nightmare. But when you literally are renovating for an expectation and outcome, even after that, that's a lot of weight and risk, and burden to carry. So would love to hear when you first started, what was your energy like and what were the biggest things that were going on your mind in terms of how to even approach the project?
I thought you were gonna ask, compare your energy from day one to now.
We'll get there.
My energy, I think I was just really naive to be honest. I think I didn't really know how to put together a strong scope of work. The way that I've organized my budget in this spreadsheet is it actually allows me to see how it's progressed over time and what other things have been added. So what I mean by is like I have a column of like original budget and then every month or so as things have changed and I've learned more things—of like, oh actually the flooring's gonna cost this, or, Hey, we forgot to budget for different things—I've added to each column so I can actually see like the V1 versus to the V6 now.
It really just was a naive kind of perspective. And even at the time I had reached out to a couple friends who do construction and checked the initial assumptions with them, but there's inevitably just always things that pop up during a construction project.
Oh, you just brought up this quote that I remembered that helped me get through my renovation—and for some listeners, I renovated a 4,000 square foot home and I've done some small projects along the way, but this was definitely the biggest, where it was just down to the studs—and the saying is, "When you're starting a project, you're naive enough to start, but stubborn enough to finish."
And that just kept going on in my head because if you know how much work it was really involved, the stress, the headache, the money, you might not even tackle all that project. So you kind of want some of that naivete to just get it going. And then hopefully you have the persistence, the dogmatic feeling to persist and get it done.
That's how you'll, you'll make it to the other side.
I'm feeling that right now 'cause we have about a month left, so I'm at that point where you just gotta be stubborn and I'm writing like an absurd amount of checks and like wires and credit card charges. But you're right, I keep thinking, there's no option at this point to stop any of that because we need to get this project done and just the way, at least for this project, a lot of that stuff is kind of back loaded.
There's a lot of construction work heading up to it, but now we're at the point where we're ordering all the finishes and all that, and at least for a first time flipper—maybe if you've done this like a bajillion times, you're comfortable with it—but like the amount of just credit card charges that are coming through or like things that I need to approve or like:
Did you wanna go with this tiling or that tiling?
Did you wanna upgrade to this or that?
What's the budget for appliances?
Do you wanna include a washer/dryer?
It's just like an endless amount of trim. Do you want it half inch [or a] quarter?
Stairs. Flooring. It's like six millimeter thick, four millimeter thick.
Do you want engineered hardwood?
And that's just like three of the materials out of like 40 that you have to decide.
You're in the fun part 'cause it's the finishes. It's the stuff you can actually see and make a home feel so special. But the amount of decisions and details and costs that go into each one, it really can wear on you, where at some point you have to like lean on someone else to make those decisions in some ways.
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You didn't ask this, but this reminded me of how important having a good general contractor is—and shout out to anyone in the Bay Area, especially in the East Bay who's looking, JJ Construction or Juan that I'm working with, he's just been so great—because I think he is starting to adapt to know what I want and the style that I want for the home, and also the designer that we're working with. So he's already able to make some decisions for us. He comes to the table with, "Hey, I've decided to put a pocket door here because a normal door won't work." I think we're gonna order this style of door, does that work?
That already is like a decision that's kind of taken off my plate, but he's still confirming and checking with us. So that's been like a huge weight lifted, 'cause I think if you have a contractor who only executes, you're just gonna have way, way more work to do.
Yeah. Tell us who's on your roster, your team that's helping make this happen, and what were the most important skills or traits in them that make them so strong for their role?
Yeah, so the general contractor that I mentioned, and the one other thing that I'll mention is having a good general contractor is important because their subcontractors that they work with who are all licensed and do really, really good work, you actually might get better rates from those subcontractors. Because they work so frequently together that people sometimes think, well, if you hire a GC you're paying effectively for this manager, so your project cost is gonna be overall more.
But I've actually, in my experience, found that it can be actually more affordable. And then you also have that person who's kind of running the show for you. So that's been the main person.
And then I have a designer who I'm working with and she's been great, just because I know that that is not my strength at all. The different light fixtures, the pendants, the sconces, all those fancy words and different colors and all that. Oftentimes, when she sends over the selection, I'm like, "Ooh, that looks really nice." Like, yes, but I would've never thought of that on my own.
How did you hire these folks and even find them? Did you interview multiple contractors?
So actually, the way that I found the contractor and also the designer is actually through the realtor that I'm working with. So I know it can sound kind of weird to folks. Well, Cliff's in Oakland, why is he working with another realtor? That's actually how I found this deal. Her team kind of focuses on working with investors and flip projects.
So when she sent this out to me, part of the negotiation was I'll let her get the commission on the buy side. And then also if she helps to kind of project manage and just be there, then also let her take on the listing as well, so she's actually gonna help me sell it. So that to me was like, it eats into your margins and profit.
But I was very okay with that, having that extra oversight, being my first project and also a pretty big one. And then she brought in the contractor and designer as well, so I didn't actually interview anyone else. So there was kind of that initial leap of faith that I had to take from the beginning.
The power of a good realtor is access to that Rolodex, because finding good vendors is so crucial, and especially for this one in particular, knowing the type of contractor, designer who knows the type of project that you're working on, because they've done multiple of them, it's key.
Oh yeah. Yeah. So important because, I think what I've read is and hopefully this doesn't happen to me, but I've heard, for flippers, usually how they go wrong is you're not designing the home to your end buyer perfectly enough. So for example, if you're trying to sell like a million dollar home, you start using $2 million finishes, you're gonna go over budget and if you use $800,000 finishes, it's not gonna look nice for them. What's nice about having this realtor and designer is like they actually specialize in Oakland as well. So it really feels like we're kind of aligned on what the quality needs to be, but not over quality as well.
Ooh. Yeah. How do you do that? How do you balance staying on budget with making design choices that attract this pool of buyers?
Oftentimes it's been them sending design choices and then me asking, "Is there a more affordable option?" And then we compare the two and make a decision, because I think what you're getting at is oftentimes, the designer has an eye for making things look really good. And initially there were some times where I feel like the decision was more geared towards only the design without taking into account the budget.
So we've kind of had this kind of push and pull, I think a very healthy push and pull relationship to get there.
Tell us more about that. In working with a new vendor—or even sometimes it'sone you've worked with for many years—when you're dealing with high stakes, there's gonna be some push and pull. How do you navigate those kinds of hard conversations?
Yeah, it's something that I'm working on too as I get older, I think, learning to try to be more direct with what I'm saying, and also knowing when to have those conversations. We've actually had to have a couple, not tough conversations, but more candid ones about delivery timeline and getting the design and those types of things ready earlier. Because, to your question, about how to make sure it fits with the budget, what was happening was sometimes the design elements were sent so late where we're like, okay, we need to order flooring by Friday, and then the options are sent on Thursday or Friday morning. So you really don't have time to compare other things. And so my point was like, well, we know the square footage of the home, and know we need flooring. Why are we getting that sent to us on Thursday? Why not a week or two earlier?
And so we've had a couple of those conversations and luckily we've kind of seen a shift in how we communicate. So that's been helpful because like if you have enough heads up, then I think you can try to find a better option potentially. Otherwise if you get it last minute, you just kinda have to roll with it.
And what I've also found too, in trying to keep with the budget is for a first time flipper, there's so many components needed. So for example, my budget for things like doors, trims, door handles, and all those things, you kind of need to plan all that in aggregate to see if it'll match the total budget. But if you just order the doors first, and then next come the trim, and then the next come the door handles—one step, two step, third step, you might get to the third step and have already overspent the budget.
That's where kind of the planning in advance has been helpful too, because then you could say, “okay, wait a minute. These door handles are what they're gonna cost, so we need to actually get cheaper doors.” If you do them sequentially and not as a whole group, you can get in some trouble there.
Definitely, and everyone has for the most part good intentions. But this is coming out of your wallet, no one's gonna be carrying or thinking about it as much as you are, and this goes for anyone flipping or renovating their own home.
All these other vendors, they've got multiple projects they're trying to deliver. But to know that these conversations and to realign is very common, because you are the ultimate person responsible and paying for everything. And if you are not having these conversations or you're afraid to—it's very common, but they are—they're so important and necessary to kind of get everyone back on up to speed and to know what the overall goal and vision is.
Yeah. Did you have to? It sounds like you had to have some of those conversations too with your contractors?
Oh yeah, definitely. Especially with contractors, I feel like, because I would say for most contractors, communication's not their strong suit. So even just updating what's going on, sometimes the timing, because ultimately time is money, and usually that can be the biggest delay. It's like, "Hey, why hasn't this started? Because you're waiting on X, Y, and Z."
And it's like, "what's going on there?" So, you can't help but constantly be thinking about the next steps, and sometimes you don't even know what to be thinking about. But it's very common with almost every project that there's like, "Hey, what's going on?" You gotta keep folks motivated, and I will say most contractors, they work on urgency and if you're not the one putting the urgency on them, they likely will have someone else on another project putting that. So you kind of have to be very stern in many ways. It's just the nature of this business.
That's such a good point. Kind of being the squeaky wheel can be helpful and just being persistent with it and it shows how nice you are, Con, when you described it as communication is not most contractors' strong suit. That is an understatement in my experience.
Yeah, it's tough because while I'm really good at advocating for others, for myself, I am like Brian—my husband—you go be the bad guy. But yeah, someone's got to play that role.
Curious, what were the biggest surprises for you during your flip? I know you're getting towards the end of it—and I'm sure there's still some popping up—but what has been the biggest shocker for you in this process?
I think I underestimated security and deterrence for the home. I've just heard this, I don't think this is an Oakland thing. I've heard this all across the Bay Area and LA and other places. For folks who are listening, it's common for people to break into your home to steal the appliances or also copper; they'll actually open up, rip open the walls.
And from my understanding, it's like it's pretty easy to ascertain when there might be copper exposed, because if you're doing it down to the studs remodel, you know that the walls are open up and until they do their rough in inspection–which is you need that with your walls open and all the copper installed–you need to pass that in order to move on to closing it up with drywall. You know that there's a pretty open probably 2-3 week window where it's like you can just kind of go at it. So initially I set up a security camera at the home, and then we had a couple people just at night, stop by, and just peruse outside.
Luckily they didn't break in, so then I installed a security fence. We added floodlights and all that. And— knock on wood— I think those deterrents have been good. And also just letting the neighbors know as well and setting up like a SimpliSafe and all of that.
That was just a learning for me. I just thought no one's gonna touch this construction site, and luckily no one has really, but just good to be protected 'cause that person coming in to steal copper, they might profit like a few thousand dollars, but the amount of damage would be like tens of thousands of dollars plus like losing three weeks of work. It'd be really, really painful.
Yeah, that's a huge one and, and such an important one to share. Visually, any construction site can often be a window of opportunity for someone looking for it. And huge on you to kind of think about ways to preempt that, 'cause we hear that all over. Everywhere.
What's been the most rewarding part of this experience for you?
It's weird, and I don't know—maybe you could help me describe my emotion and what the feeling is—but I guess it's just a sense of pride. It's kind of like... I don't wanna say it's like my baby, because it's not that level, but every time I go there and see this thing get a little bit more progress, and to literally see some of the photos from almost a year ago, where it was just this completely kind of rundown home, to now—I stopped by and the neighbors might go, "Oh wow, it's really coming along. It's really looking nice," and those comments. And as I look at it, I'm like, "Oh, I am really proud of this house," that literally we took down past the studs, redid the floor plan, and we've kind of reimagined it.
And it's helping me, I think, to gain confidence in myself too, because just two years ago, I never thought I could do something like this. And being able to hopefully execute it well and the end product being good, I think gives me a lot of confidence, and it's actually been a lot more fun than I expected to.
What's been fun about it for you?
Well, I love being a realtor because no two days are the same and it kind of keeps things kind of different and that also has added another layer of that. There's the design aspect and the creativity that comes from that, kind of running the numbers to make sure that your budget's on track, and that the home will sell hopefully profitably.
There's a deal hunting aspect of finding the deal. It's people oriented, working with the contractor and all that. So it's worked my brain in a lot of fun ways that I hadn't done in combination before.
Yeah, it is like, one, your baby because you have literally transformed this small house, and having seen some photos, it's a huge transformation and it's so exciting. And so I imagine just so fulfilling for you to see like, all of, not sleepless nights, but you know, all the labor and love that you put into it starting to come to fruition and hearing from your neighbors, working with the vendors that you're working with, I can see it being just so satisfying and fun in that way.
Satisfying is a good word. Yeah, it is very satisfying. Yeah.
Yeah. One question. This being your first project, has it changed any thoughts of what it's like to flip a home for you?
Ooh, I'm planning to do more of these projects. Yeah, I've really liked it. I do think I'm trying to find a balance, like I don't think I want to be like a professional flipper. I know some people who are doing like 10, 20 flips a month, and that just becomes a whole nother beast of like what you have to track and what your credit card bill is like.
And I'm sure of the stress level of that. But if it's something where, you know, one or two of these a year, I think that could be really engaging and fun. And I think I'm still trying to think through: do I wanna do quicker projects or has this long form project of like a one year type of thing been good?
I think I'm leaning towards a longer project for what you just mentioned, like the fulfillment and the satisfaction of it. To just do a quick flip where you redo just all cosmetic stuff, I think— I mean I'm sure profit-wise and everything, that probably is better— but I've really enjoyed redesigning the floor plan, figure out where the windows will go.
And in general, I'm trying to do things more for my own fulfillment than trying to figure out what I should be doing from a money perspective or those types of things.
And for you— I'm sure a lot of our listeners are curious— what did the financing look like? Was this something you saved up for? Did you take a hard money loan, pay in all cash? Share what you can.
Yeah, so this one I took out a hard money loan. Shout out to Conventus. I've used them for a few different loans in the past, 'cause they're like a private lender and they offer hard money also for bridge loans or also they do some longer term financing for things like rental properties. So I reached out to them to do a hard money loan and I think I got 80% for the purchase, then up to 80% or 90% for the rehab.
But I actually haven't drawn on the rehab at all, so I've kind of self-funded the rehab thus far. And then the purchase was at 9% plus one point upfront, which a year ago all things considered, I think that was still pretty good. I was expecting something maybe in the low double digits, like anywhere from like 10-12%.
And then the terms for the draw, for the flip, or the construction would be the same as well.
Wow, that's incredible that you also had the option to fund the rehab not out of pocket.
Yeah, exactly. So those are all terms that you set up upfront with the lender and then you have to furnish receipts and invoices and all that stuff. And then you can draw from that piggy bank.
If you could do this flip all over again, what would you do differently?
Doing it I think in Oakland has been a little bit challenging. The permit process, for example, was incredibly long. I paid for expedited service and even then it took about four, four and a half months to get the permits. I've heard that it would take double if you're not willing to pay expedited.
To give you a sense, just the permits alone were almost like $20,000 for this project, which is like I think a crazy high sum to be paying, and it's unclear like what that is fully going towards. But I do like the idea of maybe doing a project in Berkeley, I've heard Albany is much more streamlined.
Even tougher.
Really, in terms of permits?
I think so.
Oh no. Why?
I can see Berkeley being really stringent.
Oh, very strict. Yeah, okay. That's true.
I had met someone who just did a project in Albany. She said her permits took two weeks.
Oh wow.
Two to four weeks. From my other friends who do construction in other parts of the country, I think that's what they've said. They're like, yeah, two to four weeks. And then they ask like, "Well, why did it take you five months?" Like, what are you waiting on?
I don't know. I don't know if anyone has the answer to that.
Yeah, I know some cities because they use a third party to review— to do the permit review and expediting— I think that's sometimes the delay. I know for some clients in La Cañada, it's taken them about a year to get their permits reviewed because La Cañada outsources their reviews of permit plans.
Yikes.
I think LA County is comparable.
What's one piece of advice you'd give to someone considering their first flip?
The team. Make sure that you have a solid team behind you, and more importantly, just having that good contractor. I think you'll know based on their communication and how they think through design choices with you and change orders and all that stuff. You'll see their expertise and their willingness to work with you.
Knowing there are so many surprises in working on a project, I always think of when I'm hiring someone, what would that person be like when I have to bring up the not so great stuff? Like would I feel comfortable doing that? And so curious for you, Cliff, if there's a question that you think people should ask when they're hiring a contractor, what would that be? Or something to look out for.
Ooh, that's a good one. I think their willingness to give you time, and how they spend that time with you, like if they're all business and just like chop, chop. You might think that's good because that's how they would run the construction site, but what I have found in my projects is it's more of a relationship that you're building with this contractor, especially if you're trying to do projects for the long term.
If they treat it transactional from the jump, then it's likely that it'll remain transactional. But if you're spending time at the job site and they're walking through different things with you— like with Juan, I was just so impressed. Early on he was like, well, hey, you guys were thinking about putting the doors on in this direction, but the reason why I think it should go this way is because like the flow of the people coming in is how they would enjoy the room.
Or like, Hey, do you think you should extend the stairs this way because of the flow of the room? And I was like, those are really good ideas. And even though some of the changes we didn't go with, you can tell that he is committed to the project and thinking about it in that way. And that was like, I think the first time I've actually had a contractor even pose those questions to me. So it not only showed his experience, but also his care at the same time.
That's huge. Because you think, for a renovation, there's very little of that, but to see that being so important and crucial and a huge value add, it really goes to show that these relationships are so crucial, even when it's purely an investment type of purchase or renovation.
Yeah. There's so many things that are just like you can't plan for it. Like, for example, part of the wall in one of the bathrooms— and this happens all the time in the Bay Area, there's just some settlement, so the home is not perfectly straight, and so we now have to order some custom glass for the standing shower.
But those little things are like… It's his attention to detail. He was like, here, if you measure it from the ground, it's 24 inches. But then when you get to all the way to the top eight feet high, it's 24 and a quarter inch. So like a, a straight piece of glass is gonna leave a gap at the top.
And I was like, thank you, Juan. Like there's no way anyone could have caught that when you bought the home, but his attention to detail is shining through like, okay, thanks. Now we need to plan for that and budget for that going forward.
He's like, and I know someone who can do it and install it, and I've already worked him down. His original price was X and now I've negotiated down and then I do my own research on the backend, and it's true. Great price, great reviews. It's like helped us move forward two steps just with that one thing.
Wow. When you have that element of expertise, it just instills so much trust and gosh, I can only imagine how much that allows you to just breathe easy and sleep at night knowing other people care just as much as you on your project.
Yeah.
Any final parting words? Where's your energy now that we're about a year in and you've got a month left?
I'm at that point where I'm just stubborn right now needing to get to the finish line.
We got about a month left and we should be ready to go.
It's gonna be so exciting. This final month is when you just like, see it all come together and I feel like this final month is where it's so satisfying. It really hits because everything's crystallizing. You start to see the shiny parts of the home because it's all the finishes and fixtures and it's all the stuff that makes the home special.
Is that right? Okay. Because I've never gone to this point before, so I've heard that, yeah, the last month is kind of the most exciting 'cause it becomes a home after all of this prep work and all that so I'm glad to hear that from you. I'm now more excited.
Oh, definitely.
Well, there you have it. It was so great to chat with you, Cliff, about your flipping experience. I know we often get asked about what it's like to flip, to renovate, and for you to be so open and honest about what it's like— given it's your first one— it's a huge undertaking.
For folks who might have questions for you, where can they reach out to you directly?
Oh sure. Yeah. You can reach out to me directly at [email protected] or I'm on Instagram. My handle is @cliff1127, but if you wanna follow us along at willowmar.com or also our Willowmar Instagram, that's @willowmar__, and you can reach out to us directly that way as well.
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