Episode 61: A Journey of Friendship and Business Partnership with Connie and Kenny
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Hello and welcome to the Thoughtful Realtor podcast. This is a podcast where we sit down for insights, stories, and conversations about all things real estate, running a real estate company in California, and how we find our way as leaders and business partners. I'm Connie Chung.
And I'm Kenny Gong. We're two of the founders and partners of Willowmar Real Estate.
Today for Kenny and I, it's been so long since we've done a podcast recording of just the two of us. I think that's how this podcast started; it was just the two of us. So this is kind of a fun way to bring it back, reflect, talk about something really cool. I don't think it's something we've talked about intentionally, which is what it's like having and maintaining our friendship while living so far apart from each other.
And still being in business together.
Yeah!
Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know if you all know, but Connie and I started as friends first before the two of us became business partners a long time ago – eight years ago or something like that. This was all before we became founders and so much has grown, so much has changed. It's certainly no longer just the two of us. We're now a team of 17, which is kind of wild and, as Connie mentioned some folks may know, Connie and I even for the past many years have lived over 500 miles away from each other.
That's right.
Long distance friends!
Yeah, what does 500 miles look like? Kenny's in the Bay and I'm in SoCal, for those who might not know. Yeah, it's crazy to think because when we used to live… First we met living in San Francisco and then we both moved to the East Bay and lived about 10 minutes from each other and we would just call each other up, text each other for some spontaneous cafe work sessions to get boba, to run errands, kind of all the…
Or like drop things off. It would just be spontaneous drop-offs or Popeye’s. It was all really, really easy and accessible.
Super special. So we'll talk about, yeah, what that distance has been like. Has it hurt our friendship? Has it made business tougher? What's our relationship like now? Are we still friends? Let's get into all the juicy details!
Yes. Maybe we'll take our listeners back as a little bit of a refresher or even those listening for the first time. Connie and I started both working in nonprofits. We were both fundraisers for different nonprofits. And when we met at a social justice fundraising conference in Oakland in 2013 or 2014. We so quickly bonded over our passion about all kinds of things about our jobs, about social justice and about food. That was a big thing that we have always really loved is just being foodies, and trying out different, not only restaurants, but cafes, and just really embracing food culture.
And Tartine! I still remember there's a photo of the two of us and that Tartine from 2014, and it still is one of my favorite photos of us even though we look maybe at this point, 20 years younger than we are.
Con, do you remember how the idea of starting a business together came about?
Yeah, I think we were both in our nonprofit jobs and then I got into a real estate. And because our schedules were relatively flexible, we would meet together and work simultaneously. Oh it’s just that wonderful thing we loved about cafe culture in the city. That was so great! We would just pop out our laptop, get a latte, sit down, chat, do our work.
I remember we just would always share stories about what we were doing in our current day-to-day work, and you had shared about your family being in real estate for a long time. So eventually both of us were in real estate as realtors in different brokerages, and we just thought, “Oh, gosh, how fun would it be to actually work together?”
But we were so scared because of our friendship and you just hear about these horror stories of working with family or good friends and what that could do or what risk that could put your friendship at and we really did not want to lose what was so special about our friendship.
And so we decided to give it a try. We decided to date.
We dated!
As working partners. It was so cool because we just tried it out with a couple clients. We were very direct and transparent with them and [they] actually really benefited because you had built some such great relationships with your colleagues at Paragon local brokerage at the time.
And for me, it was at Vanguard, a very similar boutique brokerage. We're like a powerhouse! And we got to advocate for our clients and really leverage the relationships we built with our colleagues and even our colleagues in the industry that w ere like, “What are you guys doing? What, you're both from two different brokerages yet you're working together?”
And the funny thing is it's so commonplace today, almost, you know, I feel like we were breaking waves at the time.
You know, it's also interesting is still to this day, whenever Connie and I are out in the world together and people hear our names, they're always like, “*gasp*, Connie and Kenny.” Like I’ve heard “Connie and Kenny” as a phrase so much that it's just so second nature to me.
It's so ingrained in my body and my mind that I don't realize that it's like a fun series of words that people like to say. It's so strange. People are always like, “Connie and Kenny,” “Connie and Kenny.” And that was very much the rhythm.
Yeah, and to take it back, before there was Willowmar, we were Connie and Kenny. That was our brand. It was so good. It had a ring to it. Yeah, connieandkenny.com
Oh my gosh! Because we were “[email protected]” and “[email protected],” our emails were always flagged as spam! I guess the spam filters were like, “What are these? All of these consonants and vowels together and all of these repetitive words!” But I don't know, that just felt really right for our friendship and it felt like a playful and professional way to establish ourselves as business partners too.
Yeah, I think a really huge foundation to that was that one meeting we had in my dining room in San Francisco in Alamo Square on Golden Gate Avenue, where we kind of came up with our – what do you call that – not your prenup…
Yeah!
Essentially we created our business prenu and I remember having a lot of nerves going into that meeting because it really made us reckon with, okay, if this does not work out, what does it look like?
How do we split the business or what do we do with the business? What do the finances look like, which is hard to talk about with anyone, let alone a business partner, let alone a best friend. And yet, coming out of that meeting felt so good and so solid because we were on the same page and it really just set a really great grounding to, “Okay, wow, I have a lot of confidence in our business relationship because we are so open and honest and direct and transparent as we are in our friendship, that it just melded so well and it really set the path for such a great, great ride.”
A great ride. It's been so fun. And it's so interesting because I think at that point, we were already so close as friends, but I didn't realize what being in partnership was then and the impact of that on our friendship. Because I think at that point, like, I didn't have any other context for what friendship plus anything else could look like, right? Like a friendship outside of a romantic situation. What does friendship look like if it's turned up, if it's pumped up in some kind of way? And I feel just so grateful that throughout working together, Connie has always been an important person in my life since as friends. But truly, as soon as we became business partners and started working together as business partners for a few years, as well as continuing to cultivate our friendship, it was so clear that I was like, “Connie is one of the most important people in my entire life, point blank.” And that was a shift for me and a lesson of what could be and also the fragility of it. Because I was like, “Oh my gosh, this is now a commitment, we are married.” And I think that kind of commitment has still just become more fundamental to our business relationship, as well as our friendship. There were seeds there in those first years that I think have extended and have grown beyond and still to this day show up.
Oh, totally. Yeah. I share so many of those same sentiments and it's because it now sprouted and it's flourished and there's this huge massive garden, I can't even tell. It's like the chicken and egg. I almost don't know what came first. I almost feel like our working partnership solidified our status as best friends in many ways.
Totally. 100 percent.
Cause I'm like, “Were we best friends before we became business partners?” I don't know.
Yeah. Right. We were close, but we weren't super close. Our brains and memories have aged significantly, so I also just don't remember but the impact of those first years certainly is clear.
Yeah. And for so many of you listening, starting a business is not just work, it's so personal. And when you start it with someone else, the personal and the professional really intermingle that. It really builds those bonds in some incredible ways, and so it's so cool to think that “Connie and Kenny” has, almost 10 years or so added a third business partner. Maybe let's talk about what that was like and did we –
Yeah. You know what's interesting? I think to me, there was also something that – it wasn't definitely not intentional or strategic, like the stability of our relationship both as business partners and as friendships, I think that was our hope and the ideal, we put intention to it – I also think we got really lucky, where a lot of people over the years have come up to us and have wanted to request meetings and have set us down and be like, “What is it like to be in business with a friend?”
Like we want to do that. That's something that we're thinking about, but we also don't know. We're also scared about it. And I think my response is always just like, “I don't know, I'm sorry, but like Connie and I just got really lucky.” And I think the luck though, came from the fact that I think we're very different in many, many ways, but very similar in the right ways that build a solid working relationship. And those right ways being like I think we just generally always operate from a place of consideration for the other person and empathy for the other person. And I think this is just who we are as people. We just operate from that and a level of care.
Yeah, and I think that it was always, “How do we take care of the friendship first?” And, then we got lucky because we didn't have any huge major things that blew up the business to blow up the friendship.
And so we were lucky also in that way. But I think there was also that fundamental, like who we are as people together, you know, really complimented each other.
Shared Values
Yeah, definitely. We have a lot of shared values that translate so well into our business values and are very parallel. I mean, they're essentially the same, which as you mentioned, just very much in consideration of others and being very thoughtful. I mean, really the impetus of this podcast.
Yeah, and I think that actually probably what has been really wonderful is then to extend those values into how we built Willowmar and that has always been so upfront whenever we make business decisions. It's kind of like, “Okay, how do we come from that place?” Even if it's about finances or even if it's about whatever – building the team and adding people to the company – how do we operate from that level of care and consideration?
And it's been really nice to be able to see that. That kind of core is now so much bigger than us.
Yeah.
It’s so much bigger than us. And our company, because there's 17 of us, the group has to emanate that, right? And that means that everyone that we bring in also has to come from a similar place. Otherwise, that kind of culture, that kind of value set, will not extend without being shared by the collective which is something that I've also loved thinking about and appreciating.
Before we get into the talk about distance, let's talk about the dynamics of our team. Yeah, because it used to just be “Connie and Kenny,” and then we added staff, but then adding a third partner could have really thrown that off. It could have been like, “Oh gosh.” I'm trying to think, were there any fears or hesitations?
No, I don't think so.
I think we got very lucky. I think we are very intentional and we just have a very clear vision of who we are and what our company is all about, that when we meet that person it just clicks. So for Cliff, he was an agent working on our team. I had known him from a while back as we went to the same high school together. There was some sort of friendship there, but not super strong. We weren't active friends hanging out, but we had a lot of respect for each other. Kind of part of that wide circle of friends from the same high school kind of thing. And yeah, it was just such kismet in terms of timing, in us thinking about how to grow, but also just what Cliff had to offer because he is so different in many ways. He brings such great skills and thought processes and experience, and yet the foundation to the three of us is really that core, shared values of just, “Okay, how can we do this intentionally, thoughtfully, and with a rhythm that works for us?” And it's so crazy to think what… I can't imagine Willowmar without Cliff in that way.
Oh, of course. Yeah, 100%. And it also kind of felt like lightning struck another time because it just felt so natural. So easy when Cliff came on board. Cliff is so different. I mean, we've talked about this on the podcast before. He's so different than me. He's so different than Connie, and yet we have been able to… And we're always working on it, but there's this commitment to figuring out how we complement each other's strengths and weaknesses to kind of cover and have a lot of coverage. And I think that's really been the secret sauce for what I've loved most about Willowmar is that kind of holistic sense of leadership. And also I think similar to, you know, he also comes from a place of deep, deep, deep compassion, and care and consideration. And I think that also, because that's the through line, it was so complimentary that it was exactly the only way we could have expanded to where we are now. It’s because of the three of us working in tandem together. Because I don't think we could have done it just the two of us.
Yeah and I will say it is fascinating to go from a two-person to a three-person partnership because in many ways the two, it's logistically sometimes easier. You're just coordinating two schedules. There's good rhythm, but a third actually adds such a fascinating dynamic where it does allow to fill in the holes or even to poke holes like, “Hey, I noticed this,” or “what can we do?” And that kind of perspective and coverage is really fascinating in terms of getting better and doing better and learning. That's been really fascinating to grow from.
When you put good people together, they become friends and they become like a little family. And so now that we have had this company grow into a little family with all of the wins and all of the challenges that come with family.
Yeah, let's get into the challenges because I feel like it's been very rosy, the things we've shared, but maybe some challenges that we've experienced, especially in kind of the working relationship as friends.
And maybe this is a good segue into the distance and when Connie moved, but it's so easy to just talk about work because there's so much of it to do and there's always something that we can talk about. And so there were in the past – I don't think we've had one recently – where there'd just be ebbs and flows of like, we're talking all the time, literally like multiple times a day, but only about work. And I think that was a challenge for the friendship because then we're skewing more business partners and friendships. So that challenge, which I think this is, it's an interesting one to see how to navigate because a part of it… And this is a testament to Connie. Connie will, a lot of times, call or text just about friendship things. Whenever we're talking about business, we're in Slack. Whenever we're talking about personal, we're in text. That has also been really helpful. Because it's like sometimes you do need a little bit of a compartmentalizing and also to know that like, “Okay, we haven't been texting enough. So how do we spend time there just as friends?” And a lot of times I try not to call Connie a ton because of course, Connie's schedule is a lot crazier than mine with the kiddos. So Connie's always is so great about calling me. And so then we'll just like, have a little chat, have a little kiki about whatever's been going on personally for maybe it's a few minutes, maybe it's much, much longer. So that's been a huge way to overcome some of that challenge when it comes to things like, how do you navigate business partnership and friendship?
Yeah, that's a huge one. I know. I remember in the early years, especially with the distance, it's fascinating because I feel like when we were close, there were so many of those in-betweens where you could talk about the personal as we're getting in the car to an appointment, you catch up on the personal and then you get to business. Whereas when we're apart and we have our meetings, it's like, no, we got to make the most of our time in our meetings and all the things we have to discuss. Especially when there are things where we might be in conflict or there's tension around it, it's added to that where it's hard to bring up the personal. And so having kind of that time separate to talk about the personal has been really great and to catch up and to be very conscious of what's life like outside of work. Because I feel like even though we have distance, we probably chat more than ever because we are constantly on Slack, we're in our planning meetings, we're in work meetings. There's so much work.
Yeah.
It's the communication. I remember at one period of time, I felt like we were talking so much, but I did feel our friendship suffered because it was all about work and an easy thing to get into. So yeah, I've been enjoying our chats, our phone chats, our random texts and conversations.
Yeah, let's talk about when you moved. I think this is probably indicative of Willowmar leadership and how we operate in life and in business, but I remember Connie was very nervous about telling us and I remember it was up a loadie.
Was it in person? I think I may have shared it over mycall when I wasn't even back from mat leave. And I think it was like a beginning of the year check in.
Yeah, possibly. But I remember Connie was very nervous.
And I was very nervous. Yeah.
And of course, Cliff and I have, again, indicative of Willowmar culture, we were just like, “Great! Okay, do it! How do you want to do this? How do we support you? How do we make that happen and how do we continue the business?” We didn't have answers for a long time. We didn't know if Connie was just going to move and just stay on Bay Area business. Was she going to start an LA business? And at that point we weren't really like a full-fledged company at that time. And so we didn't have a lot of answers. We didn't have an option to be like, “Oh yeah, we'll just open up another office of Willowmar. That wasn't part of the cards.”
It was just the three of us. It was us and Cliff when I shared that.
Yeah. So it was very, very different.
I don't think I would have been able to do that had Cliff not been here.
So, that decision was huge and then I think so much of it was – oh my gosh, this is actually so wild to think about because it feels so long ago and so much has changed – there were moments when we were just like we don't know what we're going to do. We have no clue what this is going to look like, but this is a huge shift in the business and also a personal shift because suddenly Connie, who I saw a lot, was moving. Was it going to be across the state? And yes, we're still in California, but a flight is a flight, right? A six hour drive is a six hour drive. And there is going to be a lot of distance between us. So do we want to talk a little bit about how we navigated that?
I feel like it was very hard on you emotionally. And I think that's very natural for any kind of relationship, especially the person who is… For me as a person leaving, I think I was overwhelmed ‘cause I'm in a new place settling. We bought a new home, we were renovating a home, we had kids, we had all these things to look forward to as anyone moving usually has things to do and look forward to. And the person being left behind…
Yeah, being left!
So there was a lot of guilt with that and I could tell there are moments of just sadness. But of course, Kenny would not really show that to me, but I knew it. But I knew you were so happy for me and of course we talk about it's luckily, Burbank to Oakland, really easy flight, but still it's not the same when you were used to popping by and dropping off some dessert to your best friend. And so I feel like those early years, I feel like our friendship was a little, not restrained but definitely it wasn't the same and we were like going through those growing pains of also trying to build our business. We were at such a big growth with our business and this was during the pandemic. And for those who may not know, it was actually a really busy time in real estate. So we were kind of nose down, working so hard, dealing with the pandemic on top of it and learning all the rules and also just being conscious of social interactions, not wanting to get anyone sick or all that. So definitely made it hard for the friendship in many ways on a physical level.
Yeah, and it's interesting because I think regardless of whatever happened in life over the past eight years, there has always been this commitment to the friendship. And even in these ebbs and flows, the question is always, “How do we prioritize the friendship?” What are the things that we can do to make sure that at the end of the day, that we're in service, we're working in service of this friendship that we've built and cultivated for many, many years. And so I think after all of that had happened, for me, it was that moment when I actually was very… I don't remember exactly when it was, but the effect of it was very clear to me. And I thought to myself, “Okay, Connie, her husband Brian, and her growing family are in LA. So what does this mean for me?” This just means that I have to, moving forward in my life, have to figure out what life in LA can look like for me. Like, how do I, knowing that it is easier for me to go to LA than the other way around, how do I show up physically in LA to ensure that not only I continue to cultivate my relationship with Connie? But then it also became like, “Okay, if Connie is this really, really, really important person in my life, that also means her family, her husband and her kids are also incredibly important people in my life, deeply, deeply important people in my life.” And especially for the kids, if I don't see them as they're growing up on a consistent basis, it's going to be much harder to maintain and cultivate that relationship with them. So it was very clear from a friendship level and also from a business perspective, but mostly for a friendship for the friendship to say, “Okay, what does my life in LA look like?” What does it look like to have some sort of presence on a regular basis in LA? And I think that then sparked sort of the past couple of years of trying to make it to LA at least every couple of months or so. And that's been a really nice cadence and a really nice rhythm for us. And I've loved it. I've loved being able to have that. I just know that every couple of months I have to find a way to get to LA and spend a few days down there. And I think that's been really, really helpful for the friendship and also for the business.
Yeah. Our guest bedroom is dubbed “Uncle Kenny’s Room.” And yeah, it's so interesting to think because we have such a great strong friendship now but I think it could have easily been lost in just a working relationship because that lack of physical closeness. And I know that because for me, a lot of my friendships are based on just physical proximity. I am very much a face-to-face person and kind of friendship. It's hard. I do check on my friends once in a while who live farther apart, but it's not the same as someone I see regularly and I just love that in-person experience together. It's like my love language, the quality time.
Quality time. Yeah.
I think us being very conscious of how do we bring that in; and I think part of it work has been really helpful because I'll go up to The Bay and we'll try to have some time where we'll do personal stuff or you know hang out and meet up with our other friends too. That's been great. And then Kenny you've come down quite a bit and do we'll do family stuff and I really think just us making that conscious effort to have that quality work time together in person is so huge. It's been a very conscious effort to now where it almost feels very organic and just natural like, “Hey, it's been a while, Kenny. When's your next flight? When are you coming down?” And it's so cool to think that for my kids, Mia and Mateo. They're at a place where they don't always remember everything, but they have such a strong connection with you as their uncle because of your presence in their life. And it's not even that much in person, but the time that it is, it's so valuable and substantial and weighty and frequent enough that it's like this rhythm.
Yeah, it really feels good. It feels right. I think about when we think about just us, just overall this whole topic of friendship and business partnership, I think about longterm friendships and longterm business partnerships. You're building something together. In the same way that partners, romantic partners or life partners, they're building something together. They're building a life together. And in the same way, I think I apply that to both friendship where we're building a friendship together and we're building a business together, which means that it's going to have pivots and it's going to look very different day to day, month to month, year to year. The foundation of all of those things is that commitment to the people that you're building with that you're going to shift and build together. You're going to change as people and the thing that you're creating is also going to change. And the thing that keeps it all together is that commitment to each other, like that relationship and being able to say, “Okay, we don't know what it's going to look like, but we'll figure it out. We'll make it work and we will embrace whatever it looks like.” I only get to see Connie now in person every couple of months and that on paper would not work, but in practice absolutely works. And so I think that's also part of all of this. It's like how do we just embrace what is possible even if it may not look like what some kind of expectation or ideal looks like, and just embrace it for what it is.
Yeah. I appreciate how we both just make that conscious effort to keep embracing and adding to and building because if neither of us did that, it just would have fizzled and maybe it would have just all been about work. And I feel like our friendship is such a great place because of these sporadic, like, “Hey, what was that ice cream recipe that you made the other day? Can you share it with me?” Or just the calls like and I do remember consciously thinking – because I'm not a phone person – let me call Kenny and just see what he's up to, even though I only have like five or 10 minutes to spare. So I would encourage anyone listening where you really want to build upon that friendship with someone or it's maybe not quite where you want it to be, it does take some work and some intention and thoughtfulness. But when you get to it and you keep adding to it and the other person is to it, then it's like taking on a life of its own. And I really feel like there was kind of that lull for some time naturally, but we've kind of brought it back in a whole new way that I'm really grateful for.
And I think this is with all great relationships, right? Like we're talking about friendship. We're also talking about business relationships and all of the relationships, there is that like, “How do you just do this whole thing with humans?” Like, how do you build something with other human beings that has to be fluid and dynamic and is hard work and takes intention, but also is like the most beautiful, most rewarding, most fulfilling thing, right? Like Willowmar, my relationship with Connie, these are some of the most important things. Like I mentioned before, Connie is like one of the most important people in my life. Our friendship is one of the most important things in my life. Willowmar as a business is one of the most important things in my life. It is what my life is about, right? It's not necessarily the company, but it's the relationships. It's the relationships that I get to have with Connie as a business partner that I get to have with Cliff as a business partner, the relationships that I have with all of our teammates, and the relationships that we have with our clients. Those are what make up Willowmar, and that's what makes up my life. And it is hard work, but it also is why we're human. That's what we're doing here.
Yeah. Oh, beautifully put. Well, let's wrap it there. I would say that concludes another episode of the Thoughtful Realtor. We'd love to hear, are you in partnership with a good friend?
What's it like? What challenges do you have?
What challenges are you experiencing?
Yes.
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