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Hello and welcome back to the Thoughtful Realtor Podcast. I'm Kenny Gong.
I'm Connie Chung.
I'm Cliff Tsang, and we're the founders of Willowmar Real Estate.
And this is a show for those interested and invested in the world of residential real estate.
And in every episode we sit down for insights and stories and conversations about all things in the real estate market today, running a real estate team in California, and finding our way as leaders and business partners. And today we've got Cliff in the hot seat.
It's hot and toasty.
I'm so excited to talk to you, Cliff, about your journey in real estate investing. And to kick it off, why don't you tell us how it all started for you?
Actually it's funny because the roads that led me to Willowmar were actually started on the investing sites. So I'm excited to share this with our audience. So my real estate journey started back in 2013. I was kind of in the passenger seat. My dad helped us buy a townhome in Southern California in a city called San Dimas. And so that was my first foray into real estate investing.
I didn't really know it at the time, but seeing him manage the property, collect rent, sign leases, those types of things – it was really my first experience seeing real estate on the other side, kind of being a landlord. And I still remember one of the light bulb moments that I had was when we collected rent and then used that rent to pay off the mortgage and had a few hundred dollars extra.
I was just thinking like, this is not game changing money. It was like, wow. It really was. I mean, I still remember that feeling of like, ah, all my years prior when I was a renter in Berkeley for college or in San Francisco as a tenant, that's what I was doing for another landlord. I was helping them pay off their mortgage.
So it was really a big kind of light bulb moment. And side note, like it was really interesting to see my dad manage it as well. I mean, this might be a little bit mean or kind of crude, but I don't think we did the best job managing the property. And also seeing that it could still work out financially.
That was kind of another light bulb moment to me too, of like okay, we might be onto something here. You know, we don't have the best record keeping, we don't have the best tenant management. We're renting by room and forgot to sign this new lease with someone. So kind of not by the book. But seeing that it could still work out financially, those were the starting moments back in 2013.
Yeah. So the opportunity of being able to do things a little bit better, tweak things a little bit, could have some pretty big return. Did your dad invest prior to that? Did he have other experience investing in real estate?
That's a good question. No, he didn't. So I don't know what kind of gave him the courage or the thought at that time to go for it. And he doesn't own now. He owns a couple properties in Atlanta in that metro area that he's bought with some friends. But back at that time, it was just our primary residence that we had, and then this other one that we bought. I actually haven't asked him what led him to think of that at that time.
It seems like also it was an opportunity for him to be able to say, Cliff, let's do something together. Might have been at a particular age where it felt like a good time. So I'm curious to know what you think could have been going on in his mind.
That's such a good question, Kenny. I've never thought about it from that perspective, but I'm getting some warm feelings about my dad. And just appreciating my dad right now because he truly was like a very entrepreneurial person. You know, he started his own Allstate Agency Insurance brokerage down in SoCal and just always thought about things from more of an entrepreneurial perspective.
And I think him seeing that and living through it and knowing the ups and downs that can come with being an entrepreneur and running your own business, but also the joys that can come from it, I think he wanted to plant a seed with me. And see if it's something that could sprout.
I'm guessing maybe from a parent's perspective, you plant seeds and see what things your kids take hold of and see if it works out. I do give them a lot of credit for this whole real estate journey that I've been on over the last eight, nine years. Really. Those seeds were planted with my dad.
How involved were you in that first San Dimas purchase?
My name was on the deed. The deed is still between me, my mom and dad. And then the mortgage was just me. And so that was actually another interesting thing to learn from because then I started to file a tax return and get to understand how some of those tax benefits work and flow through your own tax return. And then he was pretty much mostly hands-on for the management piece.
But as I started to get a handle on how things needed to operate, then I started to take control over some of those things. I'm not scared to share this, but a lot of it also was frustration with seeing my dad with what I thought was not managing it all that well. And I think you two have gotten to know me over the years too. I think I'm someone who, if a process can be better I like to jump in and really try to make it better. So that's really what happened with that rental property was like, hey dad, I think I can step in and just maybe organize things a little bit differently.
And then seeing like that gave me confidence. To be like, okay, yeah, I know I can do this with one property. Maybe I can start to think about scaling this up with others.
What are a couple of the processes that you changed or made better?
This might sound just really, really simple, but just back then, putting things out in the cloud. And just having a shared drive of the leases. And also like a Google spreadsheet or an Excel spreadsheet of tenant names. You know, the rent that they're paying, when does their lease end? I know it sounds so simple but I think it might not be intuitive if you've never really used Excel or something like that to organize it in that way.
My dad had a lot of handwritten notes, for example that he would scan. That was just kind of how he did business and for me it was like digitizing a lot of those things. And then also more communication via email. So that we would have it in writing as well.
They seem simple. All these things seem simple, but they're pretty fundamental. Like they're really important to get these basic things down before you can actually optimize it even more or before you can improve it. Because I think there's probably a lot of real estate investments that are run via handwritten notes, via handwritten ledgers, just documents that if you don't have 'em elsewhere, they're nowhere else to be found.
That's a really good point. I mean, still to this day, if you think about the average landlord. I don't know the statistics on it, but I'm guessing they're 50, 60 plus? They didn't grow up thinking about things in terms of Excel spreadsheets and all of that. So some of the documents that get shared when you're looking at an investment property, they're either handwritten notes or they're very kind of rudimentary. Piecemeal, put together documents. And you could tell that it was just not the most organized behind the scenes.
So your dad planted some seeds and they indeed sprouted and sprouted. Very, very prolifically. So tell us a little bit from that first investment property, getting the inspiration to really, really dive in deep.
2013 we bought that property and then it wasn't until a few years later that I bought another property. I was working at a tech company. Shout out to Hotel Tonight. Some of my best career moments from working with those people.
But I remember I sold my shares when I left the company. And I had about $150,000 that got wired into my account. And I remember just in that moment I was like, I want to use this to invest in real estate. I don't really know what fueled that. It definitely was largely what happened in 2013 and seeing that over the last few years.
And also I joke that like in an Asian household, there's just generally a lot of talk about real estate and building wealth. In that manner. Joke, but not joke. I mean, it really does happen a lot like at the dinner table and all that. So then I just kind of went for it. I just dove really deep into the literature.
Bigger pockets was big at that time too, but not as big as it is now. I got addicted to listening to podcasts. No joke. You know, I listened to one or two a day during the workout, during the work day. I still remember Meesun and I, we went to Hawaii for vacation, I think it was in 2016 or 2017. We did all the fun stuff in Hawaii, but I just brought books with me to every place that we went. Like we'd be lying at the beach. And I remember I finished like two real estate books in that week.
She was very kind and patient, but I also thought, I think she knew that the wheels were turning in my head. Of like, this guy's getting addicted to this and really wanting to learn about it just beyond like the natural curiosity that comes from things. So then I bought a rental property in Philadelphia.
That was the first one that I bought on my own, and Philadelphia because for Hotel Tonight I used to cover that market. Also two of my closest friends live in that area as well. So it was based on price point, knowing the market and having read up on all this literature on out-of-state investing.
In hindsight, it was a pretty risky move. I didn't really know what I was doing at the time, and it did lead to some good learnings of kind of getting scammed by my contractor. But now, six years later, all good. All good experiences. But it was tough at the beginning.
Walk us through what that looked like for our listeners who may not have bought any property, let alone a rental or investment property. Did you fly out there and just start looking at homes? Did you connect with a realtor who was local? How did you get pre-approved, all of the mechanics of your investment journey?
In hindsight I wish I was as methodical. Just that question that you asked is like, what are the steps? I didn't really know the steps at the time. The first one was finding a real estate agent. Shout out to Jeremy, who's still a friend. Someone that I keep in touch with. And he's been a great mentor along the way. And I interviewed a few other agents, but we just didn't click. And I could tell that they weren't really as investor focused.
By investor focused, I mean, hey, I might be submitting offers more based on the numbers than the emotional connection on the home. So we might be submitting more than a couple. You know, just being willing to send out offers. That was the first piece and then everything kind of followed from after finding that good real estate agent.
He connected me with a local lender, Tioga Bank, that's based in Philadelphia. And it kind of just opened my eyes to how the investor world operates. I didn't really know the residential piece to it already at that time, of course. But just knowing that you need to find a local bank, usually you definitely need to find a local real estate agent. That local real estate agent might be able to connect you with a property manager and also a local contractor. Those types of things.
Then starting to think about building your team, because effectively I'm out here in California. There's no way that I'm gonna be able to fly out to Philadelphia for every single issue that pops up. So kind of thinking about it from that perspective, when you get started.
I'm curious to know, I know a lot of people have concerns about investing out of state. As your first go around investment property being out of state, take us through a little bit of that thinking. Were you nervous about being out of state or did you kind of just learn about investing while people were already investing out of state?
And I asked this because my dad, who has been investing in real estate for over 50 years, would never do anything that he cannot visit himself on a regular basis. And so generationally, it seems like there's been a really big shift. And you were at that time sort of at the forefront of when that shift happened. So I'm curious to hear your thoughts.
Yeah. I remember there's a kind of a seminal moment too. When I decided that I wanted to buy property in Philadelphia, I remember flying out, taking the red eye and then taking an Uber to this little area of Philadelphia called Manayunk. It's kind of, I don't know how I would describe it, maybe like the Marina of Philadelphia. It's a nice little cozy little suburb.
I had already seen a lot of the streets because I had done Google Map View. And explored all the neighborhoods. And I had researched the different stats on population growth crime rates, what employers are nearby and all those things. And I remember thinking, this couldn't have been done 5 years ago, 10 years ago.
And I didn't know it at the time, but I think it was kind of at the forefront a little bit because since then, this idea of out-of-state investing has really taken off. And I really wish that I had kind of dove deeper into it at the time. But technology really has changed the game for folks and allowed you to kind of from an objective standpoint, evaluate real estate. What was so crazy before might not be as loony of an idea.
Even like the simple thing of, on Yelp right now, you could message 10 vendors all in one shot to get bids for anything. Landscaping, fix this toilet, et cetera. And that in of itself is like a game changer in some ways. Because then you could quickly discern what is a fair price to fix that toilet. 10 years ago, we'd have to call 10 people and it just would be so much of a headache to do.
But it was really scary. I remember all of those things. It was trial by fire learning as I was going. You know, I'd never sent a wire. Of that amount before, I probably haven't really had sent a wire period. Until that point. Confirming if you’re getting scammed, chatting with lenders, knowing that they know that I don't know what I'm talking about.
I remember I just kind of used an equation to buy the home. The equation that I used to purchase rental properties was targeting 70% of ARV (after repair value). So if the project was expected to be worth $100,000 after rehab, then you'd want your total cost to be $70k, including purchasing the home plus any repairs/rehab.
So that gives you some buffer to do some repairs and also gives you some wiggle room to make sure that you're getting a good enough deal. And so that's how I literally submitted the first offer. I think it was 115,000. And when he asked, why did you come up with 115? It was in that equation.
That was your purchase price?
That was the purchase price.
There's this term I think with out-of-state investing becoming so popular today. Is it like laptop landlords? And there's a lot of glorified kind of appeal to it, but I know it's so much hard work, and I know you've gone through a lot. Cliff, can you share some of the early struggles or new experiences? I know you mentioned contractors scamming you, can you tell us a little more about what that was like?
Yeah. And you're right. I just saw a Wall Street Journal article in the last few weeks that dubbed this new phenomenon “laptop landlord”. I thought it was a creative name for the group. The one that comes to mind was related to this, the first property that I bought. I found through Yelp, a contractor that had good reviews. I remember meeting six to eight contractors over two days. I got bids from all of them and decided to move forward with this one person.
And I didn't know at the time, but I knew that he knew that I was naive and also being out of state, that he could kind of twist my arm a little bit and kind of ask for things that are a little unorthodox in the process. So I started paying him ahead of schedule. Which is what you should never really do with a contractor.
I've heard the term: a third, a third, a third. So a third upfront for them to get materials. Or you can even buy the materials directly at Home Depot or what have you. So you don't have that initial third cost to them directly. A third when you're halfway through the project, and then a third when you're finished with the project.
That kind of keeps incentives aligned for them to finish effectively and do it on time. But I paid him, I can't remember what excuse he used but he said, Hey, I need this final payment before we finish. And so pretty much the last two months of the project, he didn't show up. It was really hard to get him there.
And when I flew out to Philadelphia to check on the final work that he said was all completed, I found out that it was fake photos that he sent me along the way. So the countertop was installed but there's no plumbing underneath. The vanity was literally just taken from Home Depot and just placed against the wall, but no plumbing behind it. So you could just move it without much effort.
And it was a really scary moment cuz we had tenants moving in, I think three weeks from there. And I was just kind of freaking out because everything had kind of gone according to plan for the most part. To think, oh no, I need to redo, restart the last few months and then delay everything. It was just pretty nerve wracking.
But I guess the silver lining from that was I did end up finding a really good contractor. My property manager recommended someone and the property manager said, okay, we need to get someone in ASAP to kind of save the day for you. And that contractor has helped me with other projects. He's been a friend, a great contacter as well. So kind of all worked out. Thankfully. But it was a pretty scary moment.
Oh, I know getting local property management has been very crucial for you. Tell us more about that and why it's so important for you to have a property manager for your properties.
I think for me it really comes down to, you can always self-manage and do it on your own. That's an option. But at some point, if you think about it from a scaling perspective, you're gonna run out of time effectively. And I think it's kind of thinking about the longer term vision of what do you want real estate to provide for you?
Because if you end up managing those properties, maybe 5 is doable, 10 might be doable as well, but at some point it becomes a full-time job. And then at that point, usually if you're buying property without the thought of having a manager in place, it's even harder to put them in place at that point because you're like… I have to give this person 10% of my rent off the top. I'll just keep taking that one phone call that pops up once a month. I'll do this. I'll just drive out. It's only 20 minutes to do this for my property.
And that's where you start to see more burnout happen with landlords. And so I've always just kind of been under the philosophy of like, hey, if you're gonna own real estate from the get-go, find a good property manager and let that person kind of stay in their swim lane and do what they're an expert at. Especially if you're doing out-of-state property, I think that's almost a must-have. If the plan is to manage it from out of state, I think you're gonna run into some hardship pretty quickly.
From that single Philadelphia property to where you are today, what does your portfolio look like today and what are some milestones in between?
So I bought a few in Philadelphia. But you know, quickly that little submarket became pretty saturated. You could tell that maybe some other investors were coming in or people could tell that it was a little bit underpriced. And so the prices kind of started to ratchet up a little pretty quickly as I started to get my sea legs and feel like I knew what I was doing. So then we started to just kind of expand to other places. This was really out on a whim. This was in 2017.
You know, I asked Meesun and I was like, let's think about this as investing together. Where would you wanna buy some real estate? And side note, that's been a really, really powerful thing for us too, is like thinking about bringing our spouse or like significant other along the journey. Right? A joint financial kind of journey to building wealth. And she picked Austin, which I kind of vehemently thought was not a good choice at the time.
And of course, everyone knows what's happened to Austin since 2017. It's probably been our best investment thus far. So that's also been a side thing in my head of just understanding, maybe you don't know.
Trust your wife.
Yes, trust your wife. That's a good summary of what I learned. And then after that, we started to partner with some friends. A couple friends from college. We bought a 20 unit in Charlotte back in 2019. And that was kind of the same journey of what I said. What happened in Philadelphia on a single family home was on a 20 unit because there was new learnings for all of that. It's a commercial loan. We took out what's called agency debt through big CBRE effectively. And so that was a whole other learning process of thinking about how to manage a bigger property and also raising funds from some friends and pulling things together.
And then we started buying a few more properties in Kansas City and then most recently, almost a year ago now Connie and I bought a property in Madison, Wisconsin. I've always leaned towards thinking about how do I kind of bring other people along this journey. Of course there's risks with partnering with friends, but I felt like, hey, this is a good thing.
Let me think about how to share it. Share on the upside and the learning and the growth with other people. And kind of bring them along the journey. If I've made some mistakes, then they don't need to make those same ones on their own.
So you've got single family homes, condos. Town homes, townhome?
One town home, two condos.
A couple of very large residential apartment complexes.
They're small. Medium size?
And is there any other exciting property types we can put into the mix?
I've started to do some other investing on the side as well on some projects. So I don't know the full kind of details on them, but they're like self storage. And I've invested in like a ground up self storage development project out in Charlotte. There's another one that's a brand new townhome build as well.
So those are ones that I don't know. Not in the weeds. I really can't articulate kind of all those details, but I'm starting to think about expanding beyond what my knowledge base is and trying to think about like, how can I partner with other people as an investor with them, and maybe they can take me under their wing so that I can think about larger projects down the road as well.
I love that Cliff, because I think you are illustrating that you don't need to be the expert in what you're doing, but partnering with those who really do know. And of course clearly you've done your research and are an expert in many ways, but also to leverage resources is really leaning on people who know what they're doing too as a viable investment route.
And I know you've mentioned in the past about different businesses to invest in, like dental offices, laundromats. I mean the options are endless and I love that you're always so curious and thinking with this investment hat on. And it's certainly opened my perspective in many ways. And yeah, when I think about the property we invested together, I'm like half of it I don't know what's going on, but I trust Cliff. And I think that's a huge thing, is really having that trust in who you invest.
Yeah. You bring up a really interesting observation, which is with real estate investing, really the team is so important because at the end of the day, like you could outsource almost every job function. Which is kind of, I think, shocking for people to really think about. But if you have a good leasing manager, good loan officer, or bank that you work with, almost every piece of the puzzle you really don't need to be hands on directly. As long as you found the right people to help with.
I just find the business aspect, like you bring up the laundromats and dental offices. I got a good chuckle out of that, but it's like, I don't know. Maybe it's going back to my dad of just planting some of those seeds of thinking about this world in a very business oriented way. And it's really kept me very engaged. It excites me, you know? Those are things that I enjoy thinking about during the day.
Yeah. And I think also what's also really exciting about this as a takeaway is that there's so many different ways to invest in real estate. And as a corollary to kind of building out your team, I think a part of it is also allowing ourselves, and in this case our listeners, to really invite them to see real estate investing as not something that’s a full-time thing. You know, if you find opportunities, there's so many different opportunities out there, and you don't have to be completely hands-on. You don't have to source all the money yourself.
There's so many wonderful opportunities out there and good people that are trustworthy, that have experience, that have knowledge that you can partner with or just help. And so that you can really use this as a way to build your own wealth but not do it super, super actively. And I think that's such a huge takeaway. And I encourage people just to really see it as a lot of different ways to engage and a lot of different opportunities to explore.
Kind of related to that one, one thing too that I wanted to share was the investing piece has really pushed me to grow my mindset as well. Because there's a very interesting phenomenon. I'm trying to think what other industry this applies to, but with real estate investing, it's kind of odd. Like once you know how to source and think about managing and buying, say a 10 unit building. That person is very likely capable of buying a hundred unit building.
Of course there's learnings and you’re not able to just jump into it, but if someone's able to manage a 10 unit very well, they're very likely able to do the same thing with a 100 unit. And it's not 10 times harder to manage a hundred unit than a 10 unit. So there's this weird kind of mental barrier that happened where you go, can I, should I? Who thinks that I have the audacity to own a 100 unit building, like these big real estate developers and all that stuff?
So it really pushes you to think, why do you have a limited belief mindset? Or some of those things that really come to the forefront forces you to grow if you want to get there. And it's unlike other industries that I've experienced. For Willowmar for example, I think we've seen, as your team grows usually it's kind of a little bit more linear in terms of the challenges and things that could happen to the business owners. So just like more things to think about.
But it's kind of an odd thing with real estate investing, it's not linear in that same way. Like even like managing a team back in a corporate setting, if you manage a team of two people versus a team of 20 people, it might not be 10 times. It is harder though, right. To manage a team of 20. But I think with real estate investing it's odd, it might not be that much harder managing a 100 unit versus a 10 unit, for example.
Especially if you've got the folks, the good people on your team. Tell us about your vision, Cliff. Like we'd love to see and think through what your goal is for building out your investment portfolio.
That's such a good question. I wish I had a very clear, defined vision. This is more of just a vanity kind of metric, but I've just kind of, in my head wanted to get to 100 units in the next couple years. So that's kind of what I'm mentally, you know, gunning for and just kind of prepared for.
But in terms of longer term vision, I think there's some thoughts on monthly cash flow. What that might look like. I'm sure a lot of our listeners have heard of the fire movement like the financial, independent retirement. Trying to think about how can I kind of get there fully by investing more in real estate. And then kind of related to that too is I think I found passion and love for real estate. And hopefully, I think if we get to some more freedom in terms of time I'm hoping it also applies to Meesun as well.
Maybe she doesn't feel like she needs to be shackled (or whatever the word we wanna use) of her type of job right now that she might not be the most excited about. Working in that industry and working in tech I think I've generally heard a lot of that from a lot of friends that still work in tech, that it's not the end that they want to be at.
And then giving her the space. To think about what she wants to do. That warms my heart, I'm working hard… I don't wanna say for, but a large part of it is for her. Because she's opened up this path. She was the one who really encouraged me to get into real estate to begin with. But I didn't know anything about it. And now I want to do the same. Like, this has created this opportunity for both of us, hopefully.
Now that there are so many resources out there for people to learn and people to engage, like we were just talking about, I have a sense that there's a lot more real estate investors and a lot more wannabe investors excited to get into their first investment. With that shift, there's a lot more players out there now, and so I'm wondering are there things that you've been seeing change in the industry because there's so many more people?
And are there things that people should also be aware of or should think more thoroughly than they do, now that it is so much easier and there's so much more access and so many resources? I have a feeling that also there's some people who might think they know more than they actually do. And may make decisions based on that.
Yeah, that's a really good observation. In the investing world you hear a lot about this term, “things feel very frothy right now”. Valuations prices seem really frothy. Like I guess the stock market was that way,kinda a year ago. Real estate prices still feel pretty frothy overall because they haven't come down all that far relative to, to other markets. So I think you're right. I think there's a lot of hubris with real estate investors who had it really good over the last few years.
And I'm not trying to say that I'm wiser, older than those folks because you know that I was kind of part of that rising tide. But I think you're right that a lot of people think that they are better than they really are. There's that Warren Buffet quote of, you'll know who's swimming naked when the tide comes back.
And I think that may come to fruition in the next few years. We'll really get to see who was really sharp and who was running the numbers. And I think that's the thing now that I host a real estate investing class and go to these conferences and chat with a lot of people who are really skilled at real estate investing, in my opinion, and also people who are getting into it.
I think generally I'm pretty shocked at how few people are actually running the numbers. Especially the newer people who got into it. Because if you bought this property in Phoenix and you didn't have to know anything and it went up 50% in value, you just keep doing that. But you've never really looked at the fundamentals of, will the rent in a worst case scenario cover the mortgage and all those things? Do you have exit opportunities? Do you have options effectively if things go sideways?
And I think a lot of people are just a little bit blindsided by that. Or blinded by that. They're just kind of fixated on the shiny object at the end of, hey, we can make some quick bucks. Without thinking about really running the numbers and thinking about the fundamentals.
What are some more of those fundamentals that you think folks should really pay more attention to?
I'm a believer that population growth and wage growth are really the two drivers for real estate prices and really afford you a lot of protection if things go a little bit sideways. And then cash flow. So I think just at a fundamental level, like a rental property that you buy should be cash flow positive. Some people are more speculative, they're willing to buy it for it to be losing money every month, but hey, the market might appreciate 10% and then they'll make some money at the end.
But I've always seen cashflow as that insurance policy that you have every month. For example, if something rents out for $1000, your all in cost is $800 per month, including mortgage and some funds for if the furnace breaks or those types of things. So you're pocketing $200 extra a month. That, to me, is pretty good protection because rents would need to go down 20% from 1,800 before you're neutral.
And then that's not even taking into account part of your $800 a month expense. Part of that's going towards your mortgage payment. And that in and of itself is some forced savings because you're building up some principle every month.
So really in that hypothetical scenario, rents would need to go down maybe 30, 35% for you to actually start to lose money. And I think that offers a good amount of protection, because I think historically we haven't really seen something that'd be a pretty drastic cut in rents to go down 35% for a sustained period.
To wrap up, I've got one last question for you. How has your real estate investment journey impacted your life and your relationships?
It's made it just so much more fun. Going to these conferences, meeting different people. It's just really expanded my scope of what's possible in the world. I've felt that so much too with Willowmar right? With working with all of our different clients. I think most people operate in a very tight bubble of what their world is. You go to work, you see some friends from church, and there's nothing wrong with that.
But I think when you work in a job or an industry where your job is to meet people and to find deals for clients or just see what's out there, constantly you realize that there's so many just different people out there. And that's just been the funnest part. And I think also partnering with friends along the way has really added an extra layer of how I get to know someone.
You're friends with someone, you grab a beer with them, you get dinner with them, but then now when you buy a property of Madison with them, you see another side. And then are you like–
Oh no, never again?
Sometimes, sometimes. I'm sure so. It's just been really, really fun and I feel really, really blessed to be on this journey
And what a journey it's been. Thinking about 2013 and that first inkling that your dad had to say, oh, you know, maybe we should get a little piece of real estate.
Yeah. It all started there, planting seeds.
So Cliff, tell us also about this real estate investing course that you have.
Oh yeah. Thanks for teeing that one up, Kenny. So I've hosted it three times now and it's all just been for fun. Where this came about was about a year ago, Meesun and I were hiking in Hawaii and I was thinking, how can I just kind of give back to the community and to friends. And I posted on Instagram thinking maybe it'd be five people that are interested in this class.
And then it ended up being, I think maybe 30 people joined the first one. And I've kind of hosted three times at this point, all free. It’s four classes each week. It's 1hr45mins of content, and then 15 minutes of Q&A. I even ship out two books to everyone who wants a copy of them. Two real estate investing books. And it's just been a lot of fun.
So folks, if you're interested, be on the lookout. And I think that is a great ending. There you have it. Another episode of the Thoughtful Realtor Podcast.
And we thank you so much for joining us. You can find us at willowmar.com or on Instagram and YouTube, all the places at Willowmar. On Instagram we're @willowmar__. And if you haven't already, then hit the subscribe button and leave us a review. We read each one of those comments and we love hearing from folks. And please share the love.
Yeah, and if you have friends or colleagues looking to invest or have already begun their investment journey, share this episode with them, sign up for Cliff's Investment Class coming up soon. We'll be posting some dates in the near future. And until then, bye!
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